African Cichlid Hub Forum

Author Topic: what causes mcat?  (Read 4047 times)

Offline markyp

  • Adult
  • ****
  • Posts: 1836
  • Karma: 763
what causes mcat?
« on: November 16, 2013, 07:05:52 PM »
i have to ask this qusetion , as i see the same species both normal and mcat . what causes a fish to be mcat ? is it a gene mutation or interbreeding or something completely different ? even though im not a fan of mcat mbuna , i find the whole thing very interesting
trio wild labeotropheus fuelleborni mbenji 1 m 2 obf
pair wild metriaclima long pelvic gallireya reef
pair wild metriaclima mbenji obf
pair wild metriaclima zebra gold lion's cove
pair wild tropheops membe likoma
5 F1 labidochromis caeruleus ruware

Offline Taylor1410

  • Adult
  • ****
  • Posts: 1953
  • Karma: 825
Re: what causes mcat?
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2013, 12:43:00 AM »
I'd be interested to know too :) I have a soft spot for Mcat and obs :P
4 Metriaclima Msobo magunga
6 Cynotilapia mbamba luwino reef
3 Labeotropheus fuellebourni katale 
2 Pseudtropheus neon spot
4 Metriaclima hajomaylandi pombo rock
4 Metriaclima callainos Magunga
5 Metriaclima zebra gold lions cove
4 melanochromis parallelus likoma

Offline vinboy

  • Retired Moderator
  • Boss
  • **
  • Posts: 9251
  • Karma: 4350
  • Tank Gallons: 100
Re: what causes mcat?
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2013, 01:37:01 PM »
I try and find a great artical I read somewere now were was it?

Offline Graham

  • Adult
  • ****
  • Posts: 1214
  • Karma: 949
Re: what causes mcat?
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2013, 07:43:55 PM »
There was a very good article by Ad Konings published in Cichlid News (Vol 19:2 April 2010).  There is a link to the article on on the Cichlid News webs site but unfortunately the link is broken (and has been for at least 12 months).


The genetics are quite difficult to sum up in everyday language. 



Offline markyp

  • Adult
  • ****
  • Posts: 1836
  • Karma: 763
Re: what causes mcat?
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2013, 05:35:47 PM »
so to simplify it somewhat , its a genetic thing ?
trio wild labeotropheus fuelleborni mbenji 1 m 2 obf
pair wild metriaclima long pelvic gallireya reef
pair wild metriaclima mbenji obf
pair wild metriaclima zebra gold lion's cove
pair wild tropheops membe likoma
5 F1 labidochromis caeruleus ruware

Offline Graham

  • Adult
  • ****
  • Posts: 1214
  • Karma: 949
Re: what causes mcat?
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2013, 08:39:12 PM »
So yes, it's genetic.  Marmalade Cats are Orange Blotch males.
 
The gene for orange blotch is closely connected with the gene for sex.  The gene that codes for colour comes in a number of alternatives (alleles) these being for Orange, Orange Blotch or Beige(normal).  The gene that codes for sex of course, codes for male or female (Mbuna don't have distinct sex chromosomes like mammals and birds, just a sex gene on an otherwise ordinary chromosome).  Typically the female version of the sex gene is passed on with the OB version of the colour gene.  But genetic recombination can lead to the sex gene for male being associated with the colour gene for OB.  Result M Cat.  It doesn't happen that often because the chances of the DNA fragmenting and recombining with the split being between two very closely associated genes is small.  M cats are rare in the wild because they stand out from the crowd and so are more easy picked off by predators and those that do survive tend to be out-competed by normal males for mates.  So although they would pass on a male sex gene with a OB colour gene if they did breed they often don't get the chance.

As yes inbreeding can increase the odds of getting M Cats.  In captivity, M cats have a much greater prospect of breeding and so passing on their M cat genes.  Inbreeding or breeding with OB females will increase the proportion of M Cat fry because the offspring will be getting the OB version of the colour gene from both parents and even with the chance of recombination in the next generation M Cat is less likely to be lost.  So yes inbreeding can increase the chances of M Cats.

And hybridization.  Again yes, because the OB gene associated with the male gene can be passed on as easily when breeding with a fish of a different species as when breeding with their own kind.  For this reason I'd be suspicious of a M Cat of any species other than Labeotropheus, Metriaclima or Tropheops as I'm not aware of any other mbuna genera from which wild M Cats have been reported.  And indeed suspicious of any species within those three groups in which M Cats haven't been recorded in wild fish.

Offline Trumps

  • Juvie
  • **
  • Posts: 443
  • Karma: 195
  • Tank Gallons: 200
Re: what causes mcat?
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2013, 08:43:11 PM »
Very interesting read graham, thank you very much :thumbup
Cheers

Lee

Offline Dean jones

  • Retired Moderator
  • Boss
  • **
  • Posts: 11908
  • Karma: 4006
  • Tank Gallons: 350
Re: what causes mcat?
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2013, 08:47:03 PM »
Yeah + 1 Graham ;-)
My fish love there water changes...

Offline markyp

  • Adult
  • ****
  • Posts: 1836
  • Karma: 763
Re: what causes mcat?
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2013, 08:58:04 PM »
thanks for such a detailed explenation . very interesting .
trio wild labeotropheus fuelleborni mbenji 1 m 2 obf
pair wild metriaclima long pelvic gallireya reef
pair wild metriaclima mbenji obf
pair wild metriaclima zebra gold lion's cove
pair wild tropheops membe likoma
5 F1 labidochromis caeruleus ruware

Offline vinboy

  • Retired Moderator
  • Boss
  • **
  • Posts: 9251
  • Karma: 4350
  • Tank Gallons: 100
Re: what causes mcat?
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2013, 09:17:35 PM »
Thanks Graham :thumbup
So if I was to inbreed my wild Mcat Mbenji with one of
his daughters the outcome of OB would increase making more
chances of mcat males.
There are breeders out there producing all OB fry in some species so
something like this must of been done?

Offline Nathan Miller

  • Retired Moderator
  • Boss
  • **
  • Posts: 5326
  • Karma: 1366
  • Tank Gallons: 75
Re: what causes mcat?
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2013, 12:33:35 AM »
NICE Graham!! I hope you stick around to share all your knowledge. Fantastic :)

Offline lunchbox01

  • Boss
  • *******
  • Posts: 6244
  • Karma: 2931
Re: what causes mcat?
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2014, 03:11:40 AM »
What a great read thank you graham, iv wondered this for a while and am glad I stumbled across this topic
Don't forget....PICS FOR KICKS!

2x Pairs wild Metriaclima Fainzilberi 'Makonde'
1x Pair wild Labeotropheus Fuelleborni 'Chidunga'
1x Pair wild Metriaclima sp.zebra gold 'Lion's Cove'

Offline bigtone0777

  • Global Moderator
  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 6031
  • Karma: 3431
Re: what causes mcat?
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2014, 09:06:23 AM »
Amazing info Graham, thanks!
+1
Why do today what you can put off until tomorrow :-)